Introducing… the Blue Collar Bombproof Bike project
January 13th, 2007 by Tim Grahlbomb·proof (bŏm’prōōf’)
–adjective
1. strong enough to resist the impact and explosive force of bombs or shells: a bombproof shelter.
–verb (used with object)
2. to make bombproof.
Back at Interbike, Guitar Ted, Mike and I had a chance to have some coffee and chat bikes with Gary Fisher. A big part of that discussion was how the newer technology, while having it’s benefits in the race scene, are causing mountain bikes to suffer on longterm durability. Guitar Ted and I kept discussing this afterwards and out of that came the idea for creating a Bombproof bike.
We decided to spec out a bike with affordable and durable parts. Don’t concentrate on weight or cutting edge technology, just find some parts that will make a bike that lasts a long time.
Here’s our process for the project…
- Get feedback on the spec list (below) and make a final
- Gather the parts and build the bike
- Test ride
- Change parts that don’t perform satisfactory
- Announce final spec list and offer the kit for sale somewhere
(repeat steps 3 and 4 for several months)
I differed most of creating the list to Guitar Ted as he’s the resident Crooked Cog wrench-head. So without further ado, I present the tentative spec list for the Blue Collar Bombproof Bike project…
Frame/Fork: Surly Insigator frame and fork
Crankset: Shimano FC-MC20 with 104/64 BCD rings, square taper BB compatible or Sugino XD-300 square taper BB compatible with 110/74 BCD rings.
Bottom Bracket: Shimano UN-53 118mm spindle or SKF equivilent
Shifters: SRAM MRX-Comp grip shift type 7spd
Hubs: Shimano Deore front and rear
Cassette: Shimano 13-34T 7spd.
Chain: SRAM PC-48 with Power Link
Rear Derailleur: Shimano Deore
Front Derailleur: Shimano Deore
Brakes: Tektro linear pull
Levers: Tektro linear pull compatible
Cables/Housings: Jagwire or equivilent
Seat Post: Kalloy (cheap, does the job)
Handle Bar: Dimension or equivilent (See seat post for why)
Stem: Ditto above
Saddle: Personal preferance (WTB has a commuter saddle in it’s line up)
Grips: Personal preferance (Suggest we get some from Ergon)
Pedals: Personal preferance
Rims: Laced to a Sun Rhynolite, Salsa Gordo, or equivelent rim
We’d love to hear your thoughts and suggestions so please leave a comment.
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Maybe fsa pig headeset…. some cheap platform pedals,
Not a fan of gripshift but for this build and going for cheap and durable seems like just the ticket…
Oh avid bb-5 brakes might be almost as cheap with a considerable upgrade in performance…..
Derailleurs aren’t particularly bombproof.
And the Rohloff isn’t particularly affordable.
preferance = preference
Also, it might be nice to spec an optional suspension fork, too. Most trail riders now-a-day aren’t going to ride with out one. I know that means maintenance but, you didn’t go single speed, and if they byo-clipless pedals, there are more potential break points. Maybe a spring-based fork is more maintainable that air or oil? Are there any all-elastomer forks that don’t suck left? I know there are some mountain bikes in military use, I wonder what research was done there, in these regards. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a pic of a Specialized used in the military. Maybe someone could put out feelers to them and see what they had to show off to get that contract…
Great idea, bu som,e of hese parts are suspect to say the least.
7 speed MRX shifters are one of the most commonly replaced items at my shop. The shifter housing cracks very easily, even without the abuse of mountain biking. My choice: Ez-fire shifters from Shimano. Cheap (~$30) stone reliable and easily available.
7 speed shifting? 7 and 8 speed shifting share the same chains and approximately the same spacing on the cassette. The only advantage I could see to 7 speed is reduced dish in the rear wheel, but finding a 7 speed hub theses days is difficult. Go 8 speed, it opens up more options for shifters (Alivio/STX, not to mention still available XT level shifters), and cassettes(sram 830 and 850).
SlowerThenSnot: I’m not a huge fan of the grip shift either, but I do think it’s the ticket for this job. As far as mechanical disc… that is a discussion we’ve had and not completely settled yet. Mechanical disc aren’t that much more expensive, but I’ve bent plenty of the discs before which is frustrating to keep bending straight and/or replacing them. Rim brakes are pretty reliable (I used them for a long time before upgrading to disc) and are most likely never going to break.
Greg: Sure, derailleurs aren’t more bombproof then going SS, but our goal with this project is to build a more mainstream bike with components that are cheaper and more durable then what you’ll find on most off-the-shelf mountain bikes these days. I ride and love SS, but it is more of a fringe thing. Most novice mountain bikers are riding geared bikes, so we want to give an alternative that is well priced and more durable.
bc: we could try out a suspension fork as well… the argument that we didn’t go SS is a good one. Is there a particular fork someone can suggest that bills longterm durability and lower price?
dollar bill: I’m gonna differ this question to Guitar Ted. I know the generalities of why we want to go 7-speed, but can’t get to detailed on it.
I don’t know if you guys have noticed, but most of the big manufacturers, Trek, Canndondale, Specialized, etc., still pretty much offer this bombproof bike for around $500. Admittedly, they are almost all nine speed, but I don’t really see nine speed drivetrains as being as unremittingly evil as some. To echo what the shop wrench said earlier about your choice of 7 speed over 8 or 9, I’d hesitate to spec a bike with hard to find parts even if it meant they would last longer than more common stuff. Everything breaks eventually, and I wouldn’t want to sign someone up for planned obsolescence, whether it be in a cheap bike or an expensive one.
What’s the final price tally on your list?
Where’s the prices on this bike build? Where are the parts being bought / sourced /replacements. Is there a price limit?
From what it sounds like you’re trying to do is make a bike that your readers can put together but the way its looking, its going to be an expensive build for not a lot of return.
Depending on tools and other things, I doubt many have enough tools to build a complete bike from the ground up. Are you factoring that in as well?
Specking 7 speed sounds great on the surface. Try going to your local bike shop and getting a 7 speed chain, shifter, cassette…
I’d be very surprised if you could build it for less than buying a better 9 speed bike. off the shelf.
Grip shift will most likely wear faster than 8/9 speed trigger shifters. They use plastic in the shift indexing, gumming up occurs inside the grip shift, they require more maintenance than triggers, as well as being mostly plastic inside (opposed to metal in trigger shifters) means poor and quick wearing.
You say bombproof but what does that translate to on the trail?
From the looks of it, i’d rather build up a rigid single speed bike than this bike.
Better parts, stronger, simpler, lighter, and cheaper than this build will be.
If you use a 9spd hub, you could run a 7 spd cassette with a spacer behind it. I would agree that a setting up this bike with 7spd hubs may be painting yourself into a corner long term. But 7spd cassettes and chains are plentiful at online retailers, and your lbs can certainly get them.
The advantage of 7spd over 9, in my opinion ( and I have both) is that the 7spd is much less finicky to adjust the index shifting on, and it stays in adjustment longer. Rim brakes vs disc, yes, mech discs are affordable, but from what I’ve seen, they require more maintenance than rim brakes, and the basic tektros that are spec’d are cheap and reliable. Although Avid SD5’s can be had very cheap as well.
Isn’t a square-taper crank/BB more likely to gall and round-off under torque than a splined combo? I’d look at a low-end Truvativ crank with their “power spline” BB (it’s like ISIS, but not ISIS)… these can be had for quite cheap. They weigh a ton, but I’ve been thrashing a 5D model for almost a year without a single problem. Newer LX cranks might also be a good choice.
Also, if the goal is really bombproof durability, why not sidestep the whole 7/8/9-speed question? Frankly, I just don’t know of a rear mech that qualifies as “bombproof.” Instead, run a 20 or 24 tooth rear cog with a standard (44/32/22) mountain triple for a three speed: one gear for climbing, one for all-around, one for descending.
This build is a pretty cool idea, but I agree with one of the previous posters: it’ll be tough to beat some of the $600-800 bikes out there (e.g. the Specialized Rockhopper, Jamis Durango, etc.) that offer a similar spec. It’s that old maxim: light, strong, inexpensive… pick two. Most of the entry-level hardtails are strong, heavy beasts that’ll take a lot of abuse and keep rolling. Just food for thought.
All right, Tim asked me to step in and clear up a few misconceptions that have arisen here. I’ll try to address them one by one.
1. Price vs. complete 9spd bike. First of all, it’s a given that you can buy almost any off the peg bike for less than building up one piecemeal. But that’s not really the point here.
2. Derailluers vs. SS, Internal geared, or pick yer poison: The focus group here is not “cyclists” like most of you that have responded. You probably already all have your version of a “bombproof” bike. We are looking at the guy who has to scrape together his cash to buy one bike for primarily off road, but won’t hesitate to use it anywhere. Your “average Joe” that after riding a 9spd rig everywhere for a year finds out that his drivetrain is shot and he needs to spend $100-$150 to repair it. The “Bombproof Bike” is the antithesis of what is being marketed as “a real mtb” these days. Are we aiming to become the retailers of such a rig? Not likely at this point. There’s different reasons for this project than that.
3. Availability of parts: As one responder has noted, 7spd isn’t dead……yet! I work in a shop and I have researched out the parts availability. It’s fine for now. In fact, I just purchased a brand new UN-73 bottom bracket today. Cassettes? Lots left. True 7speed hubs? A cassette body change away, although, we aren’t hung up on the dishless wheel thing for this experiment. 8sd? Not against it, but as noted, 7spd is far more forgiving, and longer lasting. An important point.
4. Shifters: Truth be known, the perfect “bombproof” shifter is a thumbie with a friction option. But since that is not available anymore, I went with grip shift over triggers. The trigger shifters have decent reliability, but are not necessarily a pantheon of strength either. Lots of plastic to break off those, and if you bend a lever, (easily done) you have weakened the mechanism. MRX is cheesy, but insanely cheap, and has two moving parts. You can “fudge” shifts if the need arises, and they are super easy to clean out.
5. Square taper cranks. Spin far better on their compatible bottom brackets, far out last outboard bearing, Isis, and other variants in the BB department, and as far as “galling out”, it’s not a problem if properly installed and torqued to spec. My perfect crank would be a 110-74 BCD five arm Race Face Turbine square taper, but some may prefer the “compact” standard BCD. If Race Face would re-introduce those cranks they would sell a boat load of them.
6. Suspension: Quality front suspension that doesn’t break the bank and is nearly maintenance free while being tough as nails? Point me in the right direction and we’ll consider it. Trouble is, the right piece would more than likely raise the price by a third of a rigid build. (Talking mass manu spec prices)
So, the point of all of this? It’s an experiment to show that a “bluecollar” spec bike can be built that will far out last the current nine speed drivetrain, be less finicky, and cost less to own. Hopefully, we can get some discussion and thought on what could be a dream gruppo for an “everyday-everywhere” mountain bike that isn’t niche, isn’t limited in gearing, and has an appealing price. Cost of ownership should be low, as should maintenance, to a point.
I have had the distinct pleasure, (sarcasm here) of telling shop customers that their one year old drivetrains are worn out, causing poor performance, and will cost upwards of triple digits to repair. I think that is wrong and unecessary. Indications are that 10 speed mtb drivetrains are just around the corner. Maybe it’s time to look in “the other direction” for a change.
Keep the comments coming. Good discussion here!
I’m a fixed and single speed junkie but the idea of a chep knock around the well at beST COST ME $80 to fix is intriguing to me for the sake of talking more people into riding 2-3 k of miles per year and it costing them all of 500 a year if that!
Imagine more people riding to work and the movies ect…
I’ll be interesting to see your final build price.
While you can buy 7 speed, walk into most shops and they’ll look at you like what’s 7 speed? I know for one, that its annoying when you goto your LBS and they don’t have a part, and I see the 7 speed being an issue at some point in the bikes life that will render your bomb-proof-bike bombed. If they do have a 7 speed part in stock, there’s a good chance its used or will be as expensive as a 9 speed part.
Good points with the durability but the fact is you’re trying to sell this bomb-proof bike to (hopefully) people who can understand reason. Most “random” people who look at a bike and if you say $200 they’re blown away. Selling these people on this idea of a 6-700 bombproof bike would take a knowledgable customer. Most people i’ve met in shops that don’t know what they want are looking for a cheap bike. 6-700 is not cheap to them.
I have a feeling most people would look at your hardtail, $700 bike, and look at the blingy trek with its 27 speeds and suspension and not think twice. An interesting idea would be to build your bomb-proof-bike, put it on the show floor and see if you can talk someone who was going to buy a 6-700 bike into it. That would be a true test of not only an attentive customer, but a very convincing salesman.
jason: You seem to be coming from the perspective that we are proposing that we sell this bike or one like it with todays situation, which is a piecemeal build by private folks. That is not the point here.
Again, the point is to show that the industry isn’t doing the average guy any favors by selling them very expensive drivetrain parts that don’t last near as long as older technology used to. Stuff that if it was available on OEM spec’ed bikes would be less expensive, could be as light, and far, far more durable than a 9speed system.
I work in a shop that is frequented by recreational cyclists that are baffled at the reasoning behind 24 speed drivetrains. They do not see that as being necessary, and when you get into the higher end stuff, it gets worse. Hand them a bill for parts replacement, (typically after their first 1000 to 1500 miles of use- easily reached within a first year of ownership) and you will feel their wrath. Is cycling fun for them? Yes. Is it worth having to spend 100-150 bucks a year on drivetrain parts? Well, that’s the “big deal” here. Lots of my customers are frustrated by this. It’s not promoting cycling to the masses. It’s not encouraging more riding in the end.
Sure, you could buy entry level stuff that is seven speed and get some of that back, but at the expense of poorly made, heavier equipment that wears out because of it’s initial quality level. What we’re trying to point out here is that this madness shouldn’t have to be. A person should be able to buy a higher quality 7spd, or even 8spd system that is lightweight, precise, AND lasts a long time. I don’t think these attributes need to be mutually exclusive and I do not believe the average person sees 9spd, or 10 speed as a step forwards in technology. From a “pocketbook” perspective, it’s a big step backwards, and again, that’s not encouraging cycling amongst the people.
The bombproof bike project is a point we’re trying to make, not a dollar we’re trying to make. We’re not suggesting that you run out and copy our spec and build your own 7spd gruppo. (Although, if you want to, have at it. It’s doable) We’re trying to show folks that you don’t have to buy into the current market philosophy of “race technology for everybody”. Race technology is good for racers. Not everybody is well served by that.
” 8sd? Not against it, but as noted, 7spd is far more forgiving, and longer lasting. An important point.”
I don’t get this statement. If 8sp and 7sp share chains and can use the same cassettes and chainrings, how does 7 speed end up lasting longer and being more forgiving?
And again MRX shifters are way to fragile to be considered bomb-proof. And at 30 dollars to replace when they crack, not a bargain when compared to Shimano EZ-fire shifters which I have seen continue to work with both plastic covers broken off and bent shift levers.
Other then these 2 points you seem to be on the right track, I look forward to the build.
“Again, the point is to show that the industry isn’t doing the average guy any favors by selling them very expensive drivetrain parts that don’t last near as long as older technology used to. Stuff that if it was available on OEM spec’ed bikes would be less expensive, could be as light, and far, far more durable than a 9speed system.”
I definitely agree with that but bike manufacturers are usually in it to make a profit. While it would be nice i think to assume that they’re doing what’s best for us, parts are made less strong for a variety of reasons I feel. Look at cell phones. I honestly think they could make a cell phone be a lot more durable and last longer than most do. They sell insurance on cell phones and I’m sure they make a mint on that program. This is just an example of what i feel the bike industry does to keep you coming back for more. I feel they want/need more than that initial sale.
“I work in a shop that is frequented by recreational cyclists that are baffled at the reasoning behind 24 speed drivetrains.”
Yea the shops I have worked at I do notice this as well, but in America with the bigger is better philosophy I feel that they will be less likey to pick the bike with lesser gears when presented with options similar in price but more “features”. Bike manufacturers are smart. There’d be no reason for us to upgrade our parts if they were super strong, lasted a long time, and never changed.
While your idea is definitely implorable and good to the cycling community who know or are fed up with spending $100 - $150 a year on bike maintanace, I feel that that cost is acceptle in my eyes. Sports cost money, cycling while not cheap, isn’t the most expensive. Comparing the elation i get to riding a bike that works however is one that is hard to put a price on.
If everyone was on the same boat/thinking as you guys I do think this idea would work well. As a passionate cyclist, if my bike didn’t work i’d do what i could to get it to work. While 7 speed (just as an example) works, i’m sure all of us would pay an extra $20 when presented with the option of paying extra for a 9speed readily available part over waiting (because the shop had to order a 7 speed part). As much as we complain I think we’d all rather just be riding and the bike companies unfortunately know this
The spec looks an awful lot like the Kona Hahanna I bought in 1995 (http://kona.dk/bikeindex.php?bikeId=363). That has survived years of use, abuse and neglect with little or no money being spent on it. For two of my three years at university it lived outside.
The BB was only replaced for the first time last spring. It’s only on it’s second headset. I only just replaced the original front wheel. I’m still running the original rear brake cable! It’s only on its second set of cranks.
I singlespeeded it a year or two ago, because the gears were starting to play up a little.
That is a bulletproof bike!
I love the list. Nice picks on the seatpost, Deore components and wheels in particular. I say stick to the Deore/Rhynolite, I’m a 6′6/250 clyde and I rode those wheels more than a year without problem or needing much adjustment.
I think this is a great idea. This is something similar to what I am wanting to do for commuting to class. Since I worry about theft, I want good parts that are not expensive or flashy.
For the sake of durable, I would look into a older LX or XT splined crank & BB. You can still pick them up new for around $50-75 & they are truly bombproof.
I might consider the 8spd because the price difference might be minimal at best and easier to find. Tuning a 7 or 8 spd are both fairly easy, using SRAM grip shift 1:1 is even better.
Go with your bad selves guys!
This is a nice idea for the budget minded person I suppose.I however fall into a catagory that many cyclist would fall into.I like tinkering with my bike, I like upgrading my bike, I enjoy the endless choices that are available to me. I enjoy this aspect of the sport almost as much as riding.Many of my freinds fall into this catagory as well as most of the people I meet at bike ride functions.Bike manufacturers know this and they feed my habit gladly!I am a bike junky!!! OK!!! there I said it !!!! Now leave me alone! I have to go to the bike store`to order that silver Salsa seat post clamp to go with my new Silver skewers !!!!!LOL
I think this is a great idea. When I go to local bike shops, it’s all about the bling factor, not the durability. The only place where durability begins to come back is on the Breezer and Novara commuter bikes. Unfortunately neither line is set up for riding the trails.
The bike in my link is the sort of “bombproof” bike I would look for. My ‘95 GT Avalanche is all that and a bag of chips. It’s changed a bit since I took those pix. It came with a 7-speed LX grupo. I’m now running an 8-speed set up with Paul’s Thumbies and rear v-brake/front mechanical disk. As you can see the bike has a rear rack. This is a great addition to any bike that you want to use on more than singletrack. I’ve ridden this bike for 11 years. (Bought used.) I used it on trails and then as a commuter. Now it’s being used as a mountain bike again.
The fork was an experiment I tried last year. It has a late 90s Marzocchi Bomber Z2 now. I also swapped out the Brooks saddle for a more conventional Forte MTB seat. It’s a lot easier to slide over a more narrow seat. It also has a set of SPD pedals now. The other mod I’ve made is to add an old bullhorn bar to it. The bike rocks!
I would go for a set of Rapidfire shifters and an 8-speed drivetrain. Spec all LX or LX/XT parts. I really like square taper bottom brackets. Unfortunately they harder to come by now. Use either a steel or aluminum frame for durability. Riser bars and a no-name stem, separate brake levers that work with v-brakes or mechanical disc brakes. Add a set of wheels that can fit a disc but will also work with rim brakes like the XT/Sun Rhynolites I bought for my singlespeed. Choose tires that aren’t too light, but instead hook up well on a variety of trails like the Panaracer Fire XC. Add a set of M520 pedals, a Kalloy seatpost and a generic saddle. For the headset, go for durability, not bling. That means high dollar stuff is out the window. The Aheadset on my GT is still good! Anyhow, that’s the bike I would want. I have no idea if it even fits the $700 limit. But you can get plenty of these bikes used for half that…
I think this is a great idea. When I go to local bike shops, it’s all about the bling factor, not the durability. The only place where durability begins to come back is on the Breezer and Novara commuter bikes. Unfortunately neither line is set up for riding the trails.
The bike in my link is the sort of “bombproof” bike I would look for. My ‘95 GT Avalanche is all that and a bag of chips. It’s changed a bit since I took those pix. It came with a 7-speed LX grupo. I’m now running an 8-speed set up with Paul’s Thumbies and rear v-brake/front mechanical disk. As you can see the bike has a rear rack. This is a great addition to any bike that you want to use on more than singletrack. I’ve ridden this bike for 11 years. (Bought used.) I used it on trails and then as a commuter. Now it’s being used as a mountain bike again.
The fork was an experiment I tried last year. It has a late 90s Marzocchi Bomber Z2 now. I also swapped out the Brooks saddle for a more conventional Forte MTB seat. It’s a lot easier to slide over a more narrow seat. It also has a set of SPD pedals now. The other mod I’ve made is to add an old bullhorn bar to it. The bike rocks!
I would go for a set of Rapidfire shifters and an 8-speed drivetrain. Spec all LX or LX/XT parts. I really like square taper bottom brackets. Unfortunately they harder to come by now. Use either a steel or aluminum frame for durability. Riser bars and a no-name stem, separate brake levers that work with v-brakes or mechanical disc brakes. Add a set of wheels that can fit a disc but will also work with rim brakes like the XT/Sun Rhynolites I bought for my singlespeed. Choose tires that aren’t too light, but instead hook up well on a variety of trails like the Panaracer Fire XC. Add a set of M520 pedals, a Kalloy seatpost and a generic saddle. For the headset, go for durability, not bling. That means high dollar stuff is out the window. The Aheadset on my GT is still good! Anyhow, that’s the bike I would want. I have no idea if it even fits the $700 limit. But you can get plenty of these bikes used for half that…
I like the idea here, and I don’t intend to pick apart the build. I would like to add something to the 7 spd vs 8 spd debate. I believe the 7 and 8 spd use the same chain and the same actuation ratio, hence same level of maintenance. I think the cassettes have the same spacing between equally sized cogs, but the 8 spd is wider and doesn’t have that extra spacer behind it like the 7 spd. This would make 8 spd no harder to tune than 7 spd.
Aaron: However; an HG 7spd cassettes cogs are a bit wider than the 8spd stuff, therefore the choice. More “meat” means longer life span. It’s also my theory that if Shimano had continued R&D on 7 speed using the HG style casettes they could have improved the ramp profiles and made the shifting even smoother than anything available today. A pretty big if, admittedly, but part of the point here is that this is a possibility.
An interesting debate.
I do not wrench my bikes at all. Really all I am capable of doing is oiling the chain, changing a tire and I recently bolted a new seat on. That is really it. I have been known to adjust a derailer or two, but I would rather take the bike to the shop to have that done. But, now I don’t have to mess with deraillers because I have a SS.
So, I am not going to even try to comment on the pro’s and con’s of having 7sp vs. 8spd. But what I would like to comment on is that customers are not as stupid as some bike shop attendants may believe them to be. I am not insinuating that any of the posters in this debate who are bike shop wrenches believe thier customers are stupid. Rather I am saying that if a prospective buyer comes into your shop and wants to look at some bikes. You may very well be surprised if you PIMP the better value, or “Bombproof” bike just as hard as the latest bling. I am going to take your word as being good until you steer me wrong. I hung out in bike shops a lot when I was a young guy. The best bike salesman I ever saw used to ask all his prospective buyers plenty of questions to find out what they needed and how they planned to use the bike. If the buyer gave the impressions from thier answers that they wanted a no nonsense, low maintenance machine, then that is what the salesman would sell them. This guy would answer all the weight vs. price vs. performance questions honestly and openly. More often than not the buyer would walk out with the bike that was best for them, and not best for the wallet of the bike shop owner.
I think that generally speaking many, many bike shops opporate the same way as I just described. And I think that if you explain to a prospective buyer that they are paying a little more for the Bombproof bike that will require less maintenance and repairs down the road, they will buy the better value. But you are still going to have some guys and gals that require the latest bling I guess.
Oh, and bike companies do bank on people needing to repair their bikes. That is what every business that makes any type of transportation banks on. But that still doesn’t mean that a buyer can’t buy a bike that is cheaper to repair and requires less maintenance than another model. If people didn’t care about maintenance then why do Honda’s and Toyota’s sell like hot cakes. OTOH, if you want such low maintenance that you never have to work on the machine, then you are going to pay some coin I suppose. High quality costs coin IMHO. You rarely hear anything bad about a Phil Wood BB, but that sucka is going to set you back quite a few Washingtons. Why, because the Phil Wood Co. has done their R&D and they spent a ton of $$$ doing it. Now they need to recoup thier investment. I imagine with all the good things I have heard about the Rohloff Hubs and the CK headsets that these Co.’s are doing the same thing. They are selling you a product that will last a lifetime, and you are paying a premium price for it.
Americans are so used to living in a throw away society though that many of us couldn’t fatham buying, and riding a bike for 10 years without upgrading.
Sorry for the rant.
Peace out
i think square taper cranks are a bad choice. square taper is not at all bombproof. and it’s not even considerably cheaper. splined is the only way to go. isis or octalink, or even “powerspline” cranks — which seem to be available to oems heinously cheap.
the problem with square taper is that the crank arm fixing bolts work loose because the crank arms gradually “cam” off of the BB taper, cyclically stressing the bolt axially. eventually the bolt pops off and the crank comes off enough to round out it’s tapered cavity. while it will reinstall successfully, it will only come off faster and faster. i had this problem with my first bike and i’ve seen it happen to many others.
an octalink crankset is only $47
http://froogle.google.com/froogle_url?q=http://stores.channeladvisor.com/ebikestop/items/004-CR8127&fr=AN3Zb_9FM2bAxJf3Mgj2_fIoENLR8WUpsQAAAAAAAAAA&gl=us&hl=en
and the bb is about 30, so if you’re dropping mad cash on a new instigator frame there is no excuse not to go with splined cranks given how they actually are BOMBPROOF as opposed to just cheap.
props on the gripshift, deore hubs, etc. pc-48 may be a bad chain choice because it rusts more easily than than pc-68 or some other plated chain. though this is not a problem if you take care of your bike, the spec calls for BOMBPROOF, which entails not being anal retentive about chain care.
i would spec kool stop pads on the v-brakes, they work much better than anything else without being expensive. big big difference in the wet. much much more “bombproof.”
and spec full length housing runs for the cables, and spec sealed housing stops so the cabling lasts longer. tons mo bombproof.
and spec some chainlube for heavens sakes. something easy and reliable, like synlube. waxes require too much maintenance to be considered “bombproof”
for a saddle you should spec something non-leather and non-porous. vinyl basically. it’s a fine material for seats, believe it or not, and it will outlast the other two by years.
for the wheels to be “bombproof” they need to be tensioned properly, which should be part of the spec because most wheels are run loose. spoke tensioning is a subtle improvement, but it makes a big difference when you hit something hard. a big difference in terms of not eating taco salad.
pedals need to be either flats or open mechanism clipless. m515 or m505 will not do, they are not at all BOMBPROOF. snow and mud clog the front half of the cleat retention mechanism very easily. m520, or eggbeaters allow the retention mech to push the clog through the pedal and out the other side. much more BOMBPROOF.
ok, i need to take the caps lock key away from myself now.
moreness:
might be better to spec sram ESP gripshifts and 3.0 derailleurs. derailleurs are going to get smashed, they may as well be inexpensive. 3.0s are like $16 or something.
and go ahead and a park CC-3, because if you want the bike to be bombproof, it’s got to not be run with toasted chains. they’re only $10, no excuse.
http://www.jensonusa.com/store/product/TL605A00-Park+Cc-3+Chain+Checker.aspx
and i agree with dollar bill, 8 speed is just as bombproof as 7, and no more expensive. it’s because 8/9 speed hubs use a wider spacing. i doubt that a 7 speed cassette would even fit properly to a modern deore 8/9 speed hub.
tim, how are you bending discs? i concur on the SS fringeness, and also the SS greatness. i would consider 1×8 too. grannies and big rings are just not that important. 1×8 means you need a chainguide most likely though. so a triple might be cheaper.
grant, i think the $500 treks and specializeds are not nearly as bombproof as you can get, they’re just kind of cheap, and coincidentally share some older and more time proven designs. the RST Omega T6 fork used on tons of these bikes is not at all bombproof.
jason, most of the reviews on MTBR indicate grip shifts last longer and are more reliable than trigs. yeah, they’re plastic-y but they work anyways. and a ss would be more reliable, but it’s difficult to intro people to mountain biking on a ss.
mark, good point on the 7s cassette + spacer on an 8/9 hub, and the better indexing, and the parts availability.
matt, running a 1×3 would be pretty weird. you’d still need a derailleur or chain tensioner to take up the slack, so basically you’re no better than a multi-speed rear cogset with effed up shifting.
ted, you crazy but i got love for you. amen on the drivetrain maintenance costs. 7 speed plus spacer is probably the way to go, imho. hub body replacement is silly, and won’t work with aluminum frames, which locks you into the instigator class. and i totally disagree with you about square taper bbs. it’s the same exact set of seals on a un-72 versus an es-31 or such. and saying galling isn’t a problem if properly assembled is like saying helmets aren’t necessary so long as you don’t crash. square taper is the pits, and has no considerable cheapness advantage. race face would only sell a boat load of them to older dudes who haven’t caught up with technology, which would be you. the rest of us have seen the splined light.
dollar bill, 7 speed uses wider sprocket spacing so the indexing is more forgiving if your derailleur isn’t perfectly straight or your cable stretches a hair.
the reason bike manus make the bikes they do, is that the buying customer is ignorant of what they really want, and have to decide based upon bulleted feature lists. it’s not trek’s fault their customers are idiots. i think they do protect their customers from themselves as much as they can, by quietly using durable parts where they are allowed to by the bottom line. it’s the same reason we don’t sell arguably superior 3-speeds and their 7+ speed nexus descendants. they’re mainstream parts, but the feature doesn’t pass muster in the marketing dept’s bulleted checklist.
phew.
Nathan,
Thanks for yopur comments. I mostly agree with all your points with the exception of your dislike for square taper cranks. I have been riding off road since 1989 and I can assure you that if you install them properly, they will NOT come off as you describe. Also, Octalink, Isis, and the new out board bearing BB’s don’t have near the lifespan of a cartridge type square taper BB, and that’s why we are spec’ing that type of system.
ted,
don’t shimano square taper sealed cartridge BBs have the exact same seal system as the octalink ones? i think that given the same conditions they have exactly the same lifespan, but that square taper BBs are taken off road less because of the proclivities of their owners — people who don’t spend the $ for octalink or isis.
and i believe you, that if square taper cranks are installed properly the interface is just as reliable, but i don’t think the installation /itself/ is reliable. my first modern bike came from blue sky bicycleswhich is a great shop. one of bicycle retailers top 100 nationwide. and the square taper crank fell off! while i don’t know for sure that blue sky put it on, i know that it shouldn’t have fallen off. sure that’s anecdotal evidence, but it’s an anecdote we’ve all heard over and over again! if blue sky can’t do a reliably proper job, then in my opinion you will have a hard time reliably finding someone who can do a reliably proper job.
i guess it comes down to how theoretical you want to get. i think you’re getting a smidge too theoretical.
Nathan: I’m not being “theoretical” here, but rather “experiential” with my choices. Keep in mind that over the 18 years of mtb’ing that I have worked on my own bicycles and I have been a professional bicycle mechanic for 8 years. I have seen alot of bottom brackets.
I will grant you that Octalink is marginally better than Isis or out board bearing systems, but in my years of observation and actual use, it doesn’t hold a candle to a cartridge bearing, square taper bottom bracket, such as a UN-53 Shimano unit. Those are just lightyears ahead of anything else in terms of durability.
As to your experience with the crank arm falling off, (left one, correct?), it’s a common thing for even a top 100 bicycle dealer to have the lowest mechanics on the totem pole do the assemblies, and also very common for those jobs to be handed to a temporary employee to do. Much of the time, the pay is rated per assembly, so time building up a bike is kept to a minimum. These things can all attribute to missed steps in the assembly process, or skipping them all together. Such things as torquing a crank arm to spec, (something that should be checked on every assembly, but often isn’t) is easy to skip over or forget. Besides, I don’t know too many folks that even know how to wield a torque wrench properly.
All that to say this: It’s a common mistake made by poorly trained and/or payed employees of bicycle shops everywhere. We see this come into the shop I work at at least a couple times a year. Mostly “mart” bikes, but some LBS bikes, as well. It also isn’t limited to just square taper interfaces either!
Thanks for your comments! We appreciate the feedback!
ted,
very well, i yield to your experience with square taper durability. though it doesn’t make much sense to me. (are the seals not exactly the same between UN-53 and ES-XX?) and is it not still chancy to find someone to assemble it properly?
I thought the smaller spindle, and therefore room for big bearings, was what made square taper stuff better.
Nathan: Grant here is on the right track. Oversized spindles for Octalink, and Isis are their undoing. No room to put in bearings that can actually “bear up” to the intense loading forces. (Sorry about the pun!)
Outboard bearing cranks have larger bearings but insanely poor sealing from the elements that can ruin them in a hurry. That and the reliance on parallel surfaces on the BB faces, which
Keep in mind that anything can be roached by a hamfisted mechanic. Octalinks were particularly suspect to damage by poor installation when they first came out. Most folks have a handle on what to do now, but it’s still not foolproof.
hmm, neat. hadn’t realized the actual balls were of different sizes. would you say that most bbs fail due to contamination? and if so, is it then the case that the 1/4 inch (i’m guessing) balls in square taper cartridges just handle the contamination more gracefully? i disassembled an old es-70 that had failed from overzealous hosing off by myself and it had about 3/16 balls if i recall correctly. so i guess there’d be 1/3 more load bearing surface in a 1/4 ball bearing BB.
so just what is necessary to properly install a square taper bb? torque it to spec into the frame? and torque the crank fixing bolts? grease the bb shell threads? but not the spindle? or do grease the spindle? and what about the fixing bolt threads? grease there? or loctite?
come to think of it i my old stumpy has a square taper spindle and it’s cranks definitely do /not/ fall off. it may even be the original bb for all i know, minus balls and grease.
Nathan: Cartridge style BB’s are sealed, so no contamination can get in, at least not very easily. Unless you use a high pressure hose, these will keep out just about everything, allowing full life span on the bearings and races.
Install a cartridge style BB with either grease or Loc-Tite 242 on the threads that mate to the frame, (I prefer Loc-Tite), and NO grease on the spindle to crank interface. Lightly grease the crank bolt threads and torque to 25-30 ft/lbs, depending upon manufacturers spec. (Always check the instructions in the cranksets packaging) If you don’t have any instructions, the aforementioned torque spec will usually do the trick. Just be careful, and use a properly maintenanced torque wrench with the proper technique.
so then you’re saying that by and large bbs fail due to normal wear and tear from normal usage, and not due to contamination with water?
i feel like it would be tough to disassemble a loctited in bb shell, is that not so?
would you say that it is important to clean used parts so that there is no stray grease where it might contribute to loosening? (e.g. between the fixing bolt flange and the crank, or between the spindle and the crank. friction between these four surfaces seems important to me)
Nathan: I’m saying that a quality “cartridge type” BB will most likely fail due to normal wear and tear. Cheapo, poorly made cartridge type pretenders exist, so you still have to choose wisely.
“Blue” Loc-tite, formula 242 is re-useable. “Red” Loc tite, or “Purple” Loc tite is not recommended. Read the labels at your local hardware or tool shop and you’ll see why.
You are on the right track with the clean surfaces. I like to clean everything as best I can, and grease with clean grease, use new Loc-tite, or go with the clean surface on the BB spindle. Usually, the rule of thumb is that you always have to have something on your fastener threads: Grease, Loc-tite, or anti-seize. Bolt flanges stay dry. It’s also wise to grease mating splines, such as Octalink, or Isis type spindles and crank arm interfaces. This is unlike square tapers, where you don’t want anything on the mating surfaces.
yeah, i know blue loctite is reusable and typically breakable with hand tools. but there’s so much thread surface area between the BB shell and the cartridge it seems like you’re asking for trouble. do you not coat all of the threads? or does it just work anyways?
Nathan: Typically a good eighth inch wide swath on the threads of the cups will be enough.
NO GRIP SHIFTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and definately go for the Avid BB7’s as opposed to the stupid tektro, once you’ve had disc, you’ll never go back. i say bb7’s only because they are the best MECHANICAL but if you are willing to deal with hydraulics (i dislike bleeding but its worth it), the hayes mag brakes have been known to take a beating(i have el caminoes).
yo.. just jumped on a form for the first time ever, why? driven by the hatred of my crank set… Truvativ Blaze power spline. honestly i know little if any about mountain bike maintenance. i just typed the product into google, your site came up… so somewhere over the course of all these posts, someone mentioned a truvatic crank. i saw reviews on other sites mtbr.com ??? apparently i have a horrible crank. i really love to ride, but got zero cash to invest in a top of the line bike… so i guess i’ll have to replace the shit parts i have on my norco wolverine and hope for the best…. any suggestions as to a good crank set - shit, i dont even know how the prices range…
neil said it best, helpless, helpless, helpless, helpless
I’ll throw in my thoughts on the subject. In your opening statements you claim you overall objective is a reliable bike, but costs are not the primary issue.
I see from your spec and your comments that cost IS a big issue. For me, and what I would expect from this discussion. Are your ideas of components that ARE worth spending the extra coin for. Heck, anyone can put together a budget spec. I was expecting a VALUE spec.
I would do things a bit differently. For example, a Chris King Headset is MANDATORY! I’ve had several on my bikes and the only reason to ever get rid of one is because you sell your bike with the one you have. Regardless of initial cost, a Chris King is a “set it a forget it” item. The one I have on my current ride has been on three frames. After the inital install, the only time I mess with it is to remove it to put on my new frame.
Seatposts. Kalloy????? C’mon. Being a Clydesdale, I would got through a Kalloy seatpost in just a few rides. I’d be buying a new one every month. Sure they are only $15.99, but if you have to buy one every couple rides is there a real value there? Not to me! I know, I’ve tried several different brands and always end up ponying up the dinero and getting another Thomson Elite. Yeah, yeah they’re around $85 msrp (I get a shop employee discount) but it’s another one of those “set it and forget it” items.
A previous poster mentioned Phil Wood BB’s. Again, another albeit expensive component, it is one you won’t be buying again anytime soon.
Same thing for Paul Thumbies. If you are TRULY looking for a reliable maintenance free component. A Paul Thumb Shifter is exactly what you are after.
I could go either way with the brakes. I’d rather go discs, but linear pulls are solid brakes, that are reliable for years. I’m not a fan of Tektro’s and would pay a few Benjamins more and buy a set of Avids or Shimano Deores. Simple, efficient and very effective. If I did want to go discs, my bottom level would be the BB5’s for the same reason. I would mandate full length housing regardless.
Wheels? A Shimano hub laced to a Rhinolyte would work for me. I’ve had no problems with Sun rims and think they have a good Value to them.
Stems, handlebars…etc. Cheap is fine. Heavier, but fine! For me, I would stick with an Easton aluminum bar. But really, anything will do fine!
I would spec a saddle with Chromoly rails. Again as a Clyde, you need a heavier duty rail to hold up.(pun intended)
I would not have a problem spending more for
Gears? If you really wanna be bombproof on a budget build either a fixed-gear or SS rigid steel bike.
Cheers for attempting to build a reasonably long-lasting, reasonably priced geared bicycle. Too bad most of the respondents didn’t comprehend what you were trying to do. A few points:
1. A singlespeed bike is completely useless for most people of average ability and non-average hills and climbs. Geared bikes are here to stay, as they are FAR more versatile. The SS fad will burn itself out in a few more years and you’ll see people frantically looking for old derailleur or internal geared hubs for nice old frames (to replace what they or the prior owners took off and threw away).
2. 7- and 8-speed cassette drivetrains are head-and-shoulders above 9 and 10 speed in reliability and durability - there isn’t any contest. Anyone who tells you different either isn’t being honest, or hasn’t ridden very much in varying conditions.
3. It’s trure that bicycle suspension isn’t necessary for many parts of the country. In the hard granite trails of the desert Southwest, front AND rear suspension is perhaps not necessary - but nearly so. It’s a huge advantage when it comes to control and speed. As to longevity, I have 1997 and 1998 full-suspension MTBs, both still going strong as of 2008 (with Sachs twist shifters, btw). It is possible, if you maintain them.
This story has been around for a while. Where do you guys stand on the actual bike these days?